Understanding the Differences Between Bandaging and Healing Housing Inequality: An Interview with Peter Williams

Peter Williams is a Harvard Advanced Leadership Fellow with expertise in nonprofit capacity building and program development in housing equality and civil rights. He has gained experience in housing rights and civil justice as Executive Vice President for Programs at the NAACP, President and CEO of the Mid Bronx Desperadoes, Vice President of Continuing Education and Community programs at Medgar Evers College, City University of New York, and Director of Housing and Community Development at The National Urban League. In this interview, Mr. Williams shares his opinion on the effectiveness of New Hampshire Bill HB588 (Tiny Homes) in addressing housing inequality and provides his insight into the most impactful ways to provide affordable housing to low-income communities.

The interview below was conducted in March, 2021. It has been edited for length and clarity.

Harvard Undergraduate Law Review (HULR): Can you tell me a bit about how you went into nonprofit capacity building and found a passion for affordable housing and civil rights?

Peter Williams: I am Peter Williams, I grew up in Brooklyn and in public housing, and I went on to Arizona State American University. My first job was at the Center for Law and Social Justice. At that time, the Center was about to redevelop downtown Brooklyn, and I was with the group who was opposing the economic development plans because they weren’t inclusive of people of color, who were the predominant population in the downtown Brooklyn area. After that, I became interested in mortgage discrimination in the mortgage lending market and conducted two studies on discrimination and mortgage lending in New York, one looking at New York State, one looking at New York City. In terms of the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act), requirements became involved and housing community development issues went on to me as the Director of Housing and Community Development at the National Urban League. As someone who grew up in public housing, I understood the need for housing, and I understood the impact of actual economic development, so I developed this passionate interest in community development and housing issues.

HULR: That's beautiful. It's awesome to hear that. Your interest stems from personal experience. As the previous President and CEO of the Mid Bronx Desperadoes Community Housing Corporation, could you speak to your experiences getting involved with the group?

PW: Yes, it’s a historic organization. By the way, I'm on the board of the first Community Development Corporation in the country, Bedford Stuyvesant restoration, and MBD Community Housing Corporation, Mid Bronx Desperadoes. I had an interest and became an executive director for a nonprofit and Community Development arena. We had 1200 units, 19 buildings of low-income housing. And we were moved from a property management corporation that oversaw all the maintenance and perseverance of low-income housing in the South Bronx. We are also involved in developing new housing opportunities for people who have low wealth. Most of my focus has been in low wealth communities. Community Housing Corporation is just a follow through in terms of what I've done historically in my career.

HULR: So, the MBD has successfully constructed and renovated over 2300 units of housing. In addition, the MBD developed a construction of the New Horizons Retail Center, which has created over 200 full-time and part-time jobs. I'm interested in the intersection between work opportunities and living location. Do you find that where individuals live influence what income thresholds and job opportunities are available to them?

PW: In many ways, it does. First of all, many times the educational structure is poor. So, individuals do not receive the proper skills to compete in the job market. Second, in many communities, there are barriers in terms of language and in terms of race, boundaries in terms of well, locality barriers, in terms of having role models, and understanding different career passions, and career ladders that are available. So when you combine all of that so many times it prevents someone who has potential in terms of meeting his full potential.

HULR: It seems like based on all these factors; this is a systemic issue. So, I'm interested in how we can move communities, often communities of color, out of these low-income opportunity wielding areas into communities with more opportunity. I'm aware that the MBD has offered more housing spaces to give people more affordable housing and jobs. But I'm interested if there are any other ways that we can adjust the situation.

PW: Yes, for example, that was something I was attempting to do when I was Vice President of the School Continuing Education and Community Programs at Medgar Evers College. You must create, it's about skill building. It's about changing the academic preparedness of individuals so they can compete. So, one level is making sure that the kids who are graduating from high schools have the skill sets to go on to college. If that doesn't happen, then what happens is those classes tend to be modularized and they're on their own tracks that do not allow them to compete in the marketplace. Second, something I focused on is adult education. Developing GED programs, developing pipelines for individuals who did not receive a good education. What is the standard core sector development, right? And individuals who do workforce development can learn a skill and get the GED, right, and get into a growth sector such as healthcare, that will allow them to move up the career ladder. So it's about developing credentials. We will try to develop the certificate programs. So, with these individuals, there's something called middle skills, and middle skilled jobs where you have at least two years of education. With graduates from high school, there's a whole mass of jobs that need more employees. So, there's a gap there, and really filling that sector, where people who are of low wealth then have an opportunity to get a certificate. If you get a certificate, then you get credit. So hopefully, you can work and attain a degree, move on to a bachelor’s and move up. So, you're opening opportunities for individuals who did not have those opportunities beforehand.

HULR: That's great. When I hear that I immediately think of how more than just housing inequality, we're also addressing this wealth gap. So, I'm kind of interested in how you perceive this to be effective. Do you find that this would produce a major effect generationally? Or would it produce an immediate effect for people trying to move up both?

PW: Both. If the household moves up in terms of income, that means the possibility, or some of the stresses of poverty and being low wealth are alleviated — that the family is able to provide, hopefully better academic opportunities for the kids — that the kids can see a role model for themselves, that they can achieve, and also that the children can see, especially during their lifespan, that their parents went from one level in terms of economic subsistence to another level, and they can see themselves in that world. And you can see themselves moving up, but also, like my father, who went on while I was in high school to get a degree, and he would mess with me and say, “Oh, man is doing well; look, he has got his arm, he made stainless steel, etc.” So he was competitive, and it made me compete. So when you see parents succeeding and success in your life, it's not something foreign to you.

HULR: I completely agree. Alright, so I'm moving on to a little different topic. Given your experience in housing law, I want to bring up a particular topic I'm interested in. Have you ever heard of Tiny Homes?

PW: No. 

HULR: All right, let me elaborate. So as a part of a New Hampshire Bill, HB 588, the state legislature is pushing to allow the construction of Tiny Homes in every community across the state. Tiny Homes are small attachments to larger homes; they're very small and they're not that common. But they are very eco-friendly and affordable living arrangements for people who might not otherwise be able to afford homes. Many people in higher income neighborhoods oppose the construction of Tiny Homes, because they fear that they will diminish the property value of neighboring homes, such as their own. To what extent do you think that property values serve to enforce racial or socioeconomic segregation? Have you seen this in your own experience?

PW: It's been a history of housing policy, and segregation in this country. So many instances in your backyard Long Island is known for that. So, it's part of residential and racial segregation in this country. Is this part much part of our legacy?

 HULR: I don't go to New York City often, and I always think New York City is so diverse and so large, and I never really thought about how racially segregated it might be. Is that the case?

 PW: Yes. Extremely. 

 HULR: Do you believe that the passage of Bill 588 and the construction of these tiny homes will help to alleviate the racial segregation that exists in communities by bringing lower income houses into wealthier neighborhoods? Or do you think this is kind of like a short-term bandage?

PW: I think it might be a very complex issue. Because what you don't want to have is putting families and specifically children in hostile environments. But also, on the other end, putting these kids in such environments will give them the academics to prepare them to move on. So, it's hostility versus possibility of mobility. And it's a hard trade off. This is just this whole concept and housing policy called mobility theory. And the mobility program is moving low wealth people into high wealth neighborhoods, and it's always been an issue and there's been a whole bunch of lawsuits around that — it's a very complex issue. My view is that we should put a lot of resources into improving low wealth communities to make them very strong. Because even with this Tiny House policy there is a small number of individuals who will benefit, so we must have better overall public policy to make sure that the masses are able to benefit in mainstream society.

HULR: Do you find that how you would address these housing inequality issues varies from whether it's a city to whether it's a state to whether it's a suburb?

PW: In some respects, it does. But housing inequality is also a function of economic inequality -- that the more you can afford, in terms of a house, is sometimes the better neighborhood. So, if we improve the economic wellbeing of families, you can also improve some of the housing choices. That goes along with racial segregation, because if you look at racial segregation, as communities become more of color, no matter of what economic class they are, the demographics of the neighborhood change. When you look at the history of segregation, the housing patents of this nation must change somewhat. And to me, developing very strong, vibrant communities, where more people benefit, we have a better educational system, better employment opportunities, improving mass transit, improving the conditions of housing within those communities -- this is the best approach in terms of achieving equity in this country.

HULR: So, I'm thinking about the intersection between housing rights and the accessibility of higher education. Do you think that, for example, lowering the cost of higher education might influence housing equality? Or do you think that is kind of like a short-term bandage that helps mostly the people that can already get into college?

PW: My view is different entryways into higher education. For my entry, I went to the community college system in Arizona, then went to a state school in Arizona. If you were an in-state student, it was a lot cheaper. It's very important that everyone is not going to be able to go away to school. In New York City, I was a professor in the inner-city university system that provided an entry to many low wealth people to move up the economic ladder. But the issue for me is the preparation of the students when they enter the City University system, and how much time that student spends on remedial education that goes against their financial aid, and sometimes hurts their completion rates. So, if they're better prepared going into the system, they'll have better success when in the system.

HULR: Did you find in your own experiences -- either as a student or professor -- that the students dropping out or the students struggling were students of color or of low income?

PW: Yes. Definitely. And sometimes it's not academics, sometimes it's economics. Sometimes it's, I mean, many times it's more economics, it's a combination of low wealth and academic preparedness that impacts students and just the stresses of being low wealth and the commute time. Everything is complex, especially coming across students who are struggling just to live every day, who are trying their best to improve their standing. But the circumstances that they are coming from sometimes are insurmountable.

HULR: So, I've noticed that New York City has a bunch of schools but has some elite test-only schools for high schoolers. So going off that, I've argued that the creation of Tiny Homes is constitutional, and the prohibition of Tiny Homes is unconstitutional, because allowing lower income homeowners to populate higher income neighborhoods would give low-income children the opportunity to receive better funded public school educations under the Equal Educational Equality Act. To what extent do you believe that housing inequality is also an educational opportunity issue at the public-school level, as opposed to just in higher education?

PW: Economic and racial segregation is at the heart of inequality in this country. And it is the difference in terms of academic outcomes. But at the same time, you should be able to receive a quality education coming from my low wealth community, and all should come from a high wealth community in this country. That's where we must change; we must change the level of quality in terms of education, and make sure that education for all is equal. I remember my late wife, in high school, she had the Elements of Style, right? I went to a very good high school; I didn't have elements of style. So, inequality and the end delivery of education in America is also very much central to the inequality that we see. We see economic and housing opportunities in this country. The inequality that we see in the criminal justice system, the inequality that we see in terms of employment, and with housing choices. So, there's a strong intersection between academic delivery, in terms of inequality, and segregation, and opportunities later in life.

HULR: Thank you for that. Yes, that makes sense. Thank you so much. This is such great insight. I think that those are all the questions I had regarding housing. And I just wanted to go back and learn a little bit more about your experiences as the Director of Community Development for the National Urban League, because I skipped over that. I want to know what your favorite part of that was, and I'm interested to learn a little bit more about it, because I haven't read about it.

PW: We had a very small staff at the national level, but we worked with -- we have — about 6,070 affiliates throughout the countryside around the city. I'm on a host of community development issues on housing development, financial literacy, developing credit unions, micro lending, etc. And each community was unique. But one thing about the Urban League for the most part was that we were trying to uplift people of low wealth. And one of the things in terms of our community economic development programs is economic sufficiency, and how do we reach them? What does that mean? Economic sufficiency means something different to everyone. And then we worked with our friend Mike; we had a workforce development component department, and we worked closely with them to improve the economic skill sets of individuals, so they can enter the job market and develop career ladders for themselves.

HULR: That's so great to hear. Thank you, Mr. Williams.